Helen Keller + Talking Chimeras WHO Sound Like Human Beings

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This section contains, inter alia --

The Suggested Answers to the Short Quiz which are entitled --

“Why William Shirer, the author of “The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich,” would say that America is morally INFERIOR to Nazi Germany”!!!
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johnkarls
Posts: 2034
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 8:43 pm

Helen Keller + Talking Chimeras WHO Sound Like Human Beings

Post by johnkarls »

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Yes, as laid out in the Suggested Answers to the Short Quiz, it is very painful to think of American society as MORALLY INFERIOR to Nazi Germany.

Though that is precisely what William Shirer, the author of “The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich,” would say about how we are about to create Nazi-style “death camps” in order to raise millions of human-pig chimeras WHO will be butchered for their human organs (and also presumably, so as not to be wasteful, for their meat).

[The reason why William Shirer would say America is morally INFERIOR (vs. equivalent) to Nazi Germany is that unlike Nazi Germany, America has a free press so we knew exactly what we were doing.]

*****
Bill Lee E-mail Correspondence

Bill became a close friend 11.5 years ago when he was “present at the creation” of our organization.

He is an accomplished fine-arts painter, as well as an art dealer.

A regular participant in our meetings, he is our resident agnostic (though he is a pillar in the SLC Atheist Society).

When we focused 8 years ago for our 4/9/2008 meeting on “Clone Rights -- Involuntary Soldiers, Sex Slaves, Lab Rats, Etc.” Bill was adamantly opposed to human cloning and believed that any human clones WHO might be created should be recognized as human beings WITH CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS.

During the 6 months since the Federal Government’s National Institute of Health promulgated its new guidelines permitting funding of research using human chimeras, he has consistently voted to make this topic the focus of one of our meetings.

Accordingly, when he did not RSVP to participate in our March 8 meeting on this subject, I sent him an e-mail on 2/28/2017 which did no more than inquire whether he was alive and well.

There follows the e-mail correspondence that ensued --


---------------------------- Original Message -----------------------------
Subject: Re: Re: Checking In With Bill Lee
From: John Karls
Date: Tue, February 28, 2017 2:47 pm MST
To: Bill Lee
Attachment:
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Dear Bill,

Thank you very much for your prompt reply.

*****
[After replying that he was “alive and well” Bill wanted to argue that American workers should have stayed with the Democratic Party in the 2017 election to which Yours Truly replied, in part --

“The ‘War on American Workers’ conducted for the last 25 years by ‘The Establishment’ (i.e., the billionaires who own both political parties, most of the media, and much of academia) was why I was fond of saying last year (including in postings on http://www.ReadingLiberally-SaltLake.org) that American Workers have only TWO potential Messiahs, Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump. But that Messianic status requires FIVE miracles (vs. only two for RCC sainthood) = (1) not owned by The Establishment, (2) willing to champion workers and, hopefully, America's 30% permanent "untouchable" under-caste, (3) able to win a major-party nomination (which is where Bernie Sanders crashed and burned), (4) able to win the election, and (5) then willing and able (vs. being bought off by The Establishment at that point) to actually champion American workers and America's 30% permanent under-caste (vis-a-vis which "the jury is still out" re President Trump).”]

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Reur second topic.

No, I don't have a religious belief vis-a-vis Chimeras. For example, whether they have "souls" if they have a human or near-human brain.

Though I am curious whether you believe America is MORALLY INFERIOR to Nazi Germany if it creates "death camps" for butchering millions (literally) of Chimeras with human and near-human brains for their human organs.

Special questions for you --

(1) What about Helen Keller (1880-1968) who was the first deaf-blind person to graduate from college and who went on to became a world-famous author, political activist and lecturer -- suppose that the specialists/experts had NOT been able to communicate with her for the first time at age 7 by writing characters on the palm of her hand and, like all other deaf-blind people until that time, she continued to live her entire life in isolation, never knowing that anything else in the world existed -- do you think it would have been morally permissible to butcher her for her organs???

(2) We've been talking about human-pig chimeras using Sesame Street's Miss Piggy to illustrate what we are dealing with -- a chimera with a human or near-human brain, millions of which we plan to butcher for their human organs -- (A) what if the human-pig chimeras, in addition to having human organs and human brains, have human tongues so that they can begin talking to us (which would NOT be the equivalent of the chatter of parakeets which only have proverbial "bird brains"!!!)??? AND (B) HORROR OF ALL HORRORS, what if in addition the human-pig chimeras, unlike Miss Piggy, actually LOOK HUMAN???

Since you attended our meeting 8 years ago on Human Clones (when we discussed The Island starring Scarlett Johansson and Ewan McGregor), and since you have voted for the current topic of Chimeras whenever you have been in town, I would be curious whether, as our resident agnostic (despite being a pillar of the SLC Atheist Society), you have any moral qualms about what is transpiring.

Please let me know what you think.

Your friend,

John K.


---------------------------- Original Message -----------------------------
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Checking In With Bill Lee
From: Bill Lee
Date: Wed, March 1, 2017 10:54 am MST
To: John Karls
Attachment:
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John –

[More comments about why American workers should have stayed with the Democratic Party in 2017 omitted.]

I am quite certain that, if at some point talking chimeras are created, most all of us will find our own level at which we feel they become morally unexecutable. Just as there are now people who have differing points of view regarding lab animals. I will ask you this though. Could not the same logic, in lesser fashion, be used to argue that every egg a woman produces must be harvested, fertilized, and raised (if not chosen in the current fashion)?

I consider myself fortunate when put in a situation which requires making public my position on matters of the second sort, in that I feel no need to consult any supposed authority on the dictates of an unsubstantiated and invisible ruler.

I am quite certain however that some people will be happy to prostrate themselves in front of that great mythical beast, in order to be gifted the insight which will enable them to tell us what we absolutely must do, and thereby collect their paycheck for having enlightened us. With that will also come knowledge as to how those of us who disagree should and shall be punished.

Yours with stirring implement in hand.

Bill


---------------------------- Original Message -----------------------------
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Checking In With Bill Lee
From: John Karls
Date: Wed, March 1, 2017 12:49 pm MST
To: Bill Lee
Attachment:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Bill,

Just came in from skiing and only have a moment to react to your e-mail.

I was hoping that something would make you pause re chimeras and it looks like a human tongue enabling the chimera to talk is what does it for you.

Though I am sorry that the Hellen Keller Q did not!!!

I take it from you failure to react kindly to all the Helen Kellers who lived out their lives before it became possible to acquaint them with the rest of the world, that you would have been OK with butchering them for their human organs???

If so, what about their meat???

After all, if we are, as a society, going to raise millions of chimeras that we will butcher for their human organs, wouldn't it be wasteful (particularly in view of all the starving children in the world) to waste all that good meat???

And doesn't it shock you that we uber-menschen will not only be butchering millions of unter-menschen for their human organs, but that we as a society have also descended to cannibalism???

As always, please let me know what you think!!!

Your friend,

John K.


---------------------------- Original Message -----------------------------
Subject: Fwd: Re: Re: Re: Re: Checking In With Bill Lee
From: John Karls
Date: Wed, March 1, 2017 9:37 pm MST
To: Bill Lee
Attachment:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Bill,

It occurred that your original Q of 12/28/2017 on the subject of Chimeras re whether I am motivated by a religious belief toward them deserved more than a simple “no.”

And perhaps the short answer should have been “I don’t think so.”

The long answer???

For which I am interpreting your Q as whether animals have “souls.”

As you know, the world has 4 major religions based on population -- Christianity, Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism all of which had more than 1 billion adherents until Communist China’s repression of religion reduced the worldwide Buddhist population according to http://www.cia.gov to about 520 million.

[Judaism is often called a “major religion” despite having fewer than 20 million adherents worldwide according to http://www.cia.gov because both Christianity and Islam are based on Judaism -- “Allah” is the Arabic word for the God of Abraham and Moses.]

Hinduism believes in re-incarnation of the soul up and down the animal chain depending on how good a life (or not) the soul has lived -- capped (as we learned in our 1/11/2017 focus book by Atul Gawande) by cremation of your human remains and having the ashes spread on the Ganges River as essential to eternal salvation (p. 260 of “Being Mortal: Medicine and What Matters in the End”).

Since the First Buddha was a Hindu monk and, at the time of his death, still believed he was a Hindu monk rather than the founder of a new religion (Buddhism), I am guessing that Buddhism is similar to Hinduism in believing that lower animals have souls.

With regard to Main-Line Protestant Christian denominations which focus on “The New Testament” in general and what Christ said in particular, I’ve never been aware that the Q has ever been considered carefully. My only encounters with the Q are --

My father, an attorney and bank CEO who was an elected delegate to a worldwide record 12 quadrennial conferences governing the worldwide Methodist Church, opined on the subject once in a two-way conversation with Yours Truly as an adolescent.

He reasoned backwards in saying that if we believed that lower animals had souls, then we wouldn’t butcher them for their meat -- but since we do butcher them for their meat, then they must not have souls!!!

I never gave the matter a further thought until Dandy Lion, my Golden Retriever, passed away 1/15/2017 at the age of 11 years 8 months (85 human years) -- when I happened to mention his passing at a Thursday-morning Men’s Group of my current church.

Which happens to be led by our minister despite our church having more than 2,000 members and hundreds of small groups.

He pointed out that there is nothing in the New Testament where Christ says anything about whether lower animals have souls. And for non-purists who are willing to consider the opinions of St. Paul, he had nothing to say on the matter either.

Since Main-Line Protestant Christian denominations believe Christ was NOT lying when He said that there are only TWO Commandments “for inheriting eternal life” = (1) Loving God with all your heart, soul, strength and mind, and (2) Loving your neighbor as yourself, immediately following which is the story of The Good Samaritan to drive home the point that every human being, including the poorest Bangladeshi, is your neighbor whom you are required to love as much as yourself -- the consensus of the group seemed to be that I shouldn’t be surprised to see Dandy Lion in heaven since he did indeed love everybody and everything he encountered!!!

[Which would be terrific from my viewpoint!!! Though I’m NOT betting on it!!!]

I have no idea what Roman Catholicism or Islam believes on the issue.

And no idea what The Jewish Bible (aka the Christian Old Testament) might say on the issue since, for me, The Jewish Bible is IRRELEVANT to Christianity except for its 385 Messianic Prophecies.

[More than half of which, BTW, were beyond the control of Christ and his followers such as the prophecies that the Messiah would be crucified, lots would be cast for his garments, and his bones “would not be broken” -- the last of which is particularly startling because since death in a Roman crucifixion was caused by suffocation following exhaustion from trying to hold yourself up by the nails driven through your hands and the Romans discovered that the only infallible test to determine whether a victim had died was to break the victim’s legs, there was no reason why the Roman soldiers would decide to make an exception in the case of Christ.]

Conclusion???

For our discussion 8 years ago when our 4/9/2008 meeting focused on “Clone Rights: Involuntary Soldiers, Sex Slaves, Lab Rats, Etc.” my sole concern was whether the clones should be considered human beings. With no thought being given to whether they had souls, or to any other religious concept.

And I believe that the same has been true of my concern the last 6 months with the new guidelines of Federal Government’s National Institute of Health which permit funding for research on human-animal chimeras.

So why my “I don’t think so” answer???

Because the Q of whether a clone or a chimera should be considered a human being with constitutional rights was, for me, strictly a legal and moral Q.

But American common law is based on English common law.

And English common law, until roughly 500 years ago, was Roman Catholic Law because England had no courts except ecclesiastical courts that applied Roman Catholic Law.

And when England’s temporal courts came into existence and gradually replaced the ecclesiastical courts, they continued to follow the precedent of earlier cases.

The basis in Roman Catholic law is why, for example, unless modified by statute, adultery is a felony. And a felony, under English-American common law, was a crime punishable by death (vs. a misdemeanor which could not be punished by death).

So yes, in reacting 8 years ago to the research regarding clones and in reacting during the last 6 months to the research regarding human chimeras, I have struggled with the Q of what makes a clone or a chimera a human being WHO, therefore, deserves constitutional rights.

Which, because of my legal training and 50 years of experience as an attorney, meant that in effect I was “three sheets to the wind” in having no basis whatsoever for determining what English-American common law (i.e., Roman Catholic law) might conclude on the issue.

BTW, it always strikes me as interesting that the Mainstream Media often focuses on Islamic countries that follow Sharia (i.e., Islamic Law).

Because, as discussed above, English-American common law is based on Roman Catholic law. Which, since both Christianity and Islam are based on Judaism, is quite similar to Sharia.

Enough already!!!

And I don’t blame you if you conclude that you, in retrospect, prefer my original simple “no.”

Your friend,

John K.


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Bill replied earlier today (Thu March 2) that he intends to respond to my last two e-mails, but anticipates that he will not be able to do so before the middle of next week.

[Presumably he wants to modify his position so that it doesn’t sound like he merely wants, just like doctors routinely removed tonsils from infants when he and I were young, to have doctors remove the tongues of human chimeras at birth so that they won’t be able to sound human.]

Accordingly, the e-mail correspondence to date is posted herewith because its contents should be useful in helping to inform the discussion at our meeting next Wed March 8.

BTW, Bill is not bashful about making his views known. Indeed, our most extensive e-mail correspondence on any issue is contained in the second section of http://www.ReadingLiberally-SaltLake.org entitled “Possible Topics for Future Meetings” in a voluminous posting entitled “EXPIRED – The Presbyterian Church Bearing False Witness Against Israel.”


*****
Utah Owl (aka June Taylor)

At our Feb 8 meeting, June Taylor said during the voting for our March 8 topic with regard to the NIH Funding For Research On Human Chimeras -- "I will debate you on this issue March 8 if you change the title of the topic from ‘Clone Rights -- Involuntary Soldiers, Sex Slaves, Lab Rats, Etc.’ and do not use the word ‘clone’ in your new title.”

[When Yours Truly made the topic proposal on 8/5/2016, he had used the same title that we had used for our 4/8/2008 meeting 8 years ago.]

Even though Yours Truly did change the topic title to “Killing Millions of Sesame Street Miss Piggy’s For The Human Organs,” June reneged on her agreement to “debate” at our March 8 meeting.

On the day AFTER our 2/17/2017 deadline for achieving our minimum quorum of 6 RSVP’s in order to avoid cancellation of our March 8 meeting, June e-mailed to confirm that she had decided NOT to attend the March 8 meeting, but did intend to post her views on http://www.ReadingLiberally-SaltLake.org.

Yours Truly surmises that June’s decision NOT to “debate” on March 8 after all, and her silence to date (though there is still time to post her views before our meeting) are caused, just like with Bill Lee, by an inability to articulate support for governmental funding for research on chimeras with human or near-human brains that does not sound like an echo of Nazi Germany and its policies toward “unter-menschen.”

For the curious, unlike Bill Lee, June Taylor (who is Radiology Research Professor at the U/Utah) is very religious. During the decade that she and Yours Truly have been close friends, she has always sung in the choir of Wasatch Presbyterian Church and, more than 50% of that time on and off, served on its Board of Deacons.

Respectfully submitted,

John Karls

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